Yitz aka Isaac Wasileski ([info]agnoster) wrote,
@ 2005-08-05 12:33:00
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Current music:The Who - Behind Blue Eyes
Entry tags:reading, thinking

Catching up...
Ok, well, now my lymph nodes have turned into golf balls and I can't swallow because it hurts too much. Damn.


  • The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism: A pretty good read (longer than a typical news article) suggesting the reason that scientific types cling so strongly to evolution is basically the a priori assumption of materialism. In a sense, I think that the Catholic Church's approach here is not so bad: the understanding is that the Church has no business dictating empirical study, and science has no business dictating theological matters. The only reason there's any controversy over the evolution thing is that scientists are describing a mechanism, but often accidentally assume a metaphysical meaning (there is no design). The Catholic Church says, "Well, evolution may be how it happened, but it's all part of God's plan, that's theology and you have no business there." I see both sides, but I think the current brouhaha over actually teaching ID in class - well, that's just silly. Science education should focus on the mechanisms that are involved, but obviously not any philosophical implications. Personally, I think the whole tenet of faith would be undermined if ID were true (there is proof of a designer). Evolution demands faith from religious people that it IS part of God's plan, and that's as it should be, no?

  • Slashdot Comment: This is a good short comment on the way pro-life and pro-choice advocates see their opposition. I sort of am inclined to agree to some extent with the poster: If you think an unborn baby is alive, your only ethical choice is pro-life (otherwise, after all, you'd allow mothers to kill their babies after birth, too.) If you think an unborn baby (perhaps up to a certain point) is NOT alive, then of course most would agree that a human must have the right of control over her own body. But we level accusations at people from the wrong perspective; I'm quite certain I've accused pro-lifers of just trying to repress women... and sometimes I think there's some truth to the saying "If men got pregnant, abortion wouldn't just be legal, it would be a sacrament." *sigh* But yes, I especially like a reply that quote Lazarus Long: "Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend."

  • A Parable about Openness: Reads a little disjointed, but some good ideas about transparency and privacy. There's a saying that "Information wants to be free" - some people interpret this as a moral imperative, but in fact it is simply an observation. If you've ever tried to keep something secret, you'll know that word spreads quickly because the cost of spreading and duplicating information is very different from physical goods. Governments go to a huge amount of effort to prevent their classified information from getting out, and yet it still does. But what does this say about privacy? I've actually been wondering about the duality of wanting government, scientific and commercial information free, but personal information protected. What's the justification? Brin argues we should just live in an entirely transparent society, where every individual is open to as much scrutiny as any other. Can't say I like the idea, but I'm thinking now...

  • What You Can't Say: Paul Graham, esteemed hacker and philosopher in my book, writes about Conformism, Heresy, and cursing in front of little children. Interesting, though it basically says "If you find something you can't say, don't say it, because you'll just end up arguing with idiots. Keep your thoughts to yourself!" I'm not sure I can agree with that - I sometimes say things just because I think people will disagree with them (which, admittedly, is not that same as breaking a taboo). But I think criticism is the best way to learn, so I can bring out a particular facet of what I think, have it torn down, and move on with new knowledge. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I disagree with keeping your mouth shut. The whole problem is that if nobody says something, it will only get more entrenched. Fortunately, he does provide examples of meta-attacks, which are interesting and, overall, perhaps a better strategy.



Not that I expect anyone to read it all, but it is interesting stuff... I encourage you to read at least one (the slashdot comment is shortest, the one on scientific materialism is most likely to give you serious food for thought, I think) if you have the time.

Well, now that I've had a cup of Earl Grey, I must say my throat feels a lot better.



(20 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]narses
2005-08-05 06:23 pm UTC (link)
next time don't drink from the biohazard waste bin in the fridge. It's in the container the water used to be in....

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-05 06:26 pm UTC (link)
Oh, ok... I wondered why it was glowing green...

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(Anonymous)
2005-08-05 06:37 pm UTC (link)
Also, I replaced with ice with broken glass and the whiskey with gasoline. Sorry I forgot to tell you earlier....

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[info]hydrobromic
2005-08-05 07:52 pm UTC (link)
were you throwing a party for robots or something?

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[info]ryochiji
2005-08-05 08:01 pm UTC (link)
I've gotten Golf-ball Lymph Node (a.k.a Nymph Lodes) Syndrome before, although mine felt and looked more like tennis balls attached to the side of my face...
kinda freaky, actually.

Anyway, enjoy your day off!

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[info]ithych
2005-08-05 09:52 pm UTC (link)
I'm sorry hon. One of the other interns and I are seeing a show at Adler tonight, but I'll call when I'm heading back. Feel better.

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[info]sez_
2005-08-06 07:19 pm UTC (link)
If you think an unborn baby is alive, your only ethical choice is pro-life (otherwise, after all, you'd allow mothers to kill their babies after birth, too.)

The way I see it, what makes abortion "ethical" is that the negative consequences of having the baby are more drastic than those of killing it. Whether you do it before or after is a separate question; and if there's no other choice than doing it after, then there is no "ethical" difference.

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-06 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Well, I think the point is that most people don't condone taking innocent life. Sure, in ancient rome the pater familias would have the power of life and death over his children, but few people would argue today that it's ethical to kill your child under any circumstances. Why not give them up for adoption instead?

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[info]sez_
2005-08-08 06:24 pm UTC (link)
My point is that the issue doesn't have anything to do with how different people define "life". The whole reason why discussions about abortion never get anywhere is because of that assumption. If you want to get at the root of the matter, you have to weigh the consequences of the two actions. (If adoption is an option, by the way, then by all means... but it wasn't an option in ancient rome).

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[info]sez_
2005-08-08 06:48 pm UTC (link)
(If you eat chicken you should some to terms with the idea of killing one yourself. If you get an abortion, the idea of killing your baby shouldn't overwhelm you. One has to be consistent)

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-08 07:05 pm UTC (link)
Your parenthetical is only valid if you regard a fetus as a human life, and consequently abortion as murder. You seem to be arguing that we should have a more utilitarian concept of murder, perhaps, in which we could argue whether it could be condoned in cases where the outcome is best. Technically, a more apt analogy might be: get an abortion : kill a child :: eat a fertilized egg : eat a chicken. If you consider a fertilized egg a living chicken, you will have the same moral compunctions about eating that egg as if you were eating a chicken, otherwise not. This is why the question of whether a fetus is a human life is central, (alright, alright) given the presumption that human life is somehow sacred. Of course, otherwise, it's inconsequential.

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[info]sez_
2005-08-08 08:11 pm UTC (link)
"Your parenthetical is only valid if you regard a fetus as a human life"

That is precisely my point, is that I am not regarding it as life or not life. That is not the real issue. This is the confusion that people are tangled up in and the reason why this type of discussion never ends. The idea behind the analogy is that the same motive underlies the two actions. You kill the chicken because you want to eat it, therefore if you buy it from the supermarket there is not much of an "ethical" difference. You kill the baby because you want to protect yourself/your family/even the baby itself... same with abortion.

a "utilitarian concept of murder" may imply a lack of respect for life, so it would be dangerous to assert anything like that. But we can safely say that anything that poses a threat to your and your family's life you can/should fight against (if running is not a better option, of course, e.g. war on huge scales).

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-08 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Ok, there is a distinction: You are regarding (correct me if I'm wrong) an abortion as ethically parallel with killing a baby. This does not require seeing the fetus as a human life, true. However, for most people, if the fetus is a human life, we arrive at your conclusion (that abortion = murder), but if a fetus is not a human life then abortion < murder, in the scale of atrocities.

I'm afraid I really don't follow your logic, though. I see how buying a killed chicken and killing a chicken are morally equivalent. But how does this relate to murdering a child / abortion? Is it a question of agency? Let's say for arguments sake you had a doctor kill your baby for you, or you performed your abortion yourself... would that make them morally equivalent? I think that's exactly why it comes down to the question of whether it's life or not - because if you don't answer that question, you can't justify anything else. "Is it worth taking a human life for?" is a question you have to ask at some point, and if you don't know if a human life is being taken, how can you answer?

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[info]sez_
2005-08-08 08:49 pm UTC (link)
The question is irrelevant in this case, because you have a valid motive. It doesnt matter if it's "life" or not. If a big rock was about to fall on your child's head, and you had the option to destroy it, would you destroy it or wait for it to come? What if someone was about to attack your child, would you stop it or just watch because it is "life" after all? There is no difference. It is the same threat.

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-08 09:39 pm UTC (link)
Wait... it makes all the difference! If I kill someone for polluting the air which will poison my child and ultimately kill them, well, that's not quite the same as perhaps reasoning with them about it. Killing is always a last resort to solving a problem, for the reason that life does matter. Many people who are pro-life still allow for abortions in cases where the life of the mother is threatened - a sort of self-defense that goes along with your statement. The two scenarios you mentioned - boulder vs. human - may present the same threat, but are different problems. Destroying a boulder and taking a human life are two different things. Let me put it in another context: a boulder or a human falling on your lunch. You would probably choose to destroy the boulder, but I doubt anyone would destroy a human for squashing a lunch. The threat is indeed the same, but that doesn't mean the moral ramifications are identical - because taking human life is a very tricky issue.

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[info]sez_
2005-08-08 10:35 pm UTC (link)
a threat to your lunch and a threat to your child's life are two very different things. anyway i dont see how your points refute the general point that one should defend self and family against all threats, which doesnt imply that you can go around killing everyone you suspect, or that killing should be the first solution to consider.

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-09 01:18 am UTC (link)
The example was just to show that, while threats can be equivalent, it doesn't mean the moral cost of stopping the threat is always equal. There is a cost associated with taking a human's life, and if I had to kill someone to defend myself, you can bet it would haunt me a lot longer than if I had to crush a stone or a car or something. It does matter if you end a human life, or an animal life, or crush some inanimate object, or whipe out civilization, in order to remove a threat. Hey, if I had to whipe out the rest of existence to save myself, I'm not sure I would. It might not even be moral, come to think of it. The cost of your action matters - and in the abortion case, the cost is unknown unless you determine whether you're ending a human life or not.

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[info]sez_
2005-08-09 02:02 am UTC (link)
Sure, but that still doesn't refute my point. The cost is different, but after weighing everything, the outcome is the same. It just isn't worth causing so much suffering to yourself and to others just because you were off trying to define the word "life". People can't decide if viruses are life, either. What about mosquitos? An unwanted fetus? In the long run, everyone is better off without it.

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[info]agnoster
2005-08-09 03:08 am UTC (link)
Er... I think it does refute it. You claim the outcome is the same, but it's not: in either case, the difference is between a crushed rock and a dead person. If there's no difference between those... well, why bother? I mean, clipping my nails is as horrendous as nuking a city, so why stop there? We may not know whether viruses are "life", but we know they're not human life, or mammal life... we have a very strong (perhaps unfair) heirarchy to life value in some senses - most people would rather have an innocent dog die than an innocent human. I suppose I agree for the most part with this valuation. Of course it's difficult to quantify, but if you're not even trying to determine whether life is more important than stone, then why bother defending your family, or yourself? Give your life for a rock or something if it really doesn't matter. Would we really be better off?

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[info]sez_
2005-08-09 03:25 am UTC (link)
All I'm saying is when it comes to defending yourself and your family, you are justified in ending another's life if you have to. The whole stone thing was an analogy.

but this is getting a bit too long. let's just agree to disagree.

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